Talk:Creationism

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"Evolution vs. Creation Debate"

Topic: "Is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era?"

Bill Nye, the Science Guy

Ken Ham, Answers in Genesis


Ham

No lawgiver, no laws.

Calls the Bible a "book."


"The word 'science' has been hijacked by secularists."

"Molecules to man evolution."

"observational and historical science" = naturalism

teaching evolution to force the religion of naturalism on kids.

Two different philosophical worldviews in conflict.

"Creation is the only viable model of historical science confirmed by observational science in today's modern scientific era."

Raymond Damadian: six 24-hour days.

Atheist lobby--lack of academic freedom.

"How do you account for the laws of logic and laws of nature from a naturalistic worldview that excludes the existence of God?"

Not from the Bible.
The Fourth Way.

Observational science: done in the present.

Historical science: we do not observe the past directly. We can't observe God creating. What we see in the present is very different.

Grand Canyon boundary between layers: difference between what we see right now and what we suppose happened in the past.

"Can you name one piece of technology that could only have been developed starting with a belief in molecules-to-man evolution?"

"It's a battle over the same evidence in regard to how we interpret the past."

"It's really a battle over worldviews and starting points. It's a battle over philosophical worldviews and starting points."

"My starting point is that God is the ultimate authority."

"Knowledge about the past when you weren't there."

Testable predictions from this: - intelligence produced life - after their kind--not one form emerging from another - global flood in Noah's day - one race of humans - tower of Babel - young universe

Different finches came from a common ancestory--a finch.

"All organic beings which have ever lived on this earth may be descended from some one primordial form."

Theory of kinds: just need one dog pair for all kinds of dogs, one cat pair for all cat kinds, etc. Less room needed on the ark.

Creation orchard instead of tree of life.

Evolution hijacked: bait and switch.

Observable changes (micor-evolution) to unobservable changes (macro-evolution).

The evolutionary tree is a matter of belief, not observation.

"If you teach creationism in public schools, that's religion. If you teach evolution, that's science. ... Actually, it's public school textbooks teaching a belief [in the unobserved "tree of life"] and imposing it on students."

"... imposing a naturalistic religion on students."

[Multiple genius creationist scientists just shows that genius is not omnicompetent. E.g., Newton.]

"Certainly there's change, but not the change that's necessary for molecules-to-man."

Human genome project: only one race, the human race.

"They don't want to admit that there is a belief aspect to what they are saying."

There is likewise a belief aspect to the repudiation of saganism. No way out of belief systems (MP).

"Students are being indoctrinated by the hijacking of terms."

"I challenge the evolutionists to admit the belief aspects of their worldview."

"I take Genesis as literal history, as Jesus did." -- Genesis 2, the two become one flesh.

No death until Adam sinned.

All fossils date from the flood.

Genesis is foundational: why death, why sin, why we wear clothes, why Jesus died.

The 7 Cs of history:

Creation Corruption Catastrophe Confusion Christ Cross Consummation

Noah and his family saved by passing through a door. Jesus is the door.

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9).

No necessity to confess 6-day creation 6000 years ago.

"Who is the authority in this world--man or God?"

Biblical marriage, life begins at conception.

Lots of assumptions in dating methods--no absolutes, lots of discrepancies.

No living thing died until Adam and Eve sinned.

All animals and man were originally vegetarian (!).

Thorns and thistles after Original Sin.

All such dating methods are fallible. Only infallible dating method is from the Word of God.

Species did not get on the ark; kinds did.

2000 kinds on the ark, not 7000 (?).

Speed of light, horizon problem. Inflation theory is a solution to a problem. Infinite, all-knowing God revealed by the greatness of the universe.

Man in God's image. Consciousness comes from above.

Every dating method uses assumptions. Many discrepancies.

Was one continent; split up in 6000 years.

"You can't PROVE the earth is old." -- Worshiping before the idol of "proof"?

God is necessary for science--laws of logic, laws of nature. (agent intellect)


Entire Bible to be take literally? Yes, if literally means "naturally." History, poetry, prophecy, ... laws for Israel not laws for Christians ("stone someone who touches pig skin," polygamy)


Nye

No one else distinguishes between historical and observational science.

Natural laws operated in the past as they do now.

Every land plant under water for a full year.

Millions of layers of fossils of ancient life, most of which would have lived 20 years.

680,000 snow-ice layers in the Arctic

Tree in Sweden 9,550 years old. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htm

How could we not have Grand Canyons everywhere?

Never find higher animal layer mixed in with an upper one.

Can't find one example of such mixing anywhere in the world.

From Middle East to Australia in 4000 years. No kangaroos en route.

No sign of a land bridge from Asia to Australia.

7,000 kinds (Ken Ham).

16,000,000 species today (conservative estimate).

If these came from 7,000 kinds = 11 new species every day.

"Go Seahawks."

[Feed them and clean up the droppings!]

Wyoming--6 masts, motor, twisted, leaked like crazy. 14 crewman died when it sank.

3/5s the size of Noah's ark. 8 crewmen.

400 species on 163 acres in DC zoo.

Science makes predictions.

Ken Ham creation model makes no verified predictions.

Sex is valuable for protecting against infections and parasites. Brand new genetic plan less vulnerable to extant enemies.

The Big Bang - Hubble's theory of redshift and expansion of the universe - Fred Hoyle named it the "Big Bang" - CMBR - distance to stars--billions of stars more than 6000 light years

- ice - trees - rocks - starlight - wooden ark

13.7 billion years ago

Rubidium become Strontium when a proton becomes a neutron. Ratio of Rubidium to Strontium gives a clock for how long ago a rock formed if it happened to get covered by volcanic ash.

Distance to stars

4.5 billion year date for asteroids

All we can do in astronomy is look at the past.

Telephone Game: translated over 30 centuries.

2000 kinds raises rate of new speciation to 40 a day.

"The fundamental thing we disagree on is the nature of the thing you can prove to yourself."

Pyramids older than 4000 years.

Human civilizations older than that.

2004 -- found that expansion of the universe is accelerating. "Nobody knows why."

"Joy of discovery."

"What can you really prove?"

- age of starlight - radiometric dating - deposition rate ("deep time") -

"The practical measure of the random element which can increase in the universe but can never decrease is called entropy. Measuring by entropy is the same as measuring by the chance explained in the last paragraph, only the unmanageably large numbers are transformed (by a simple formula) into a more convenient scale of reckoning. Entropy continually increases. We can, by isolating parts of the world and postulating rather idealised conditions in our problems, arrest the increase, but we cannot turn it into a decrease. That would involve something much worse than a violation of an ordinary law of Nature, namely, an improbable coincidence. The law that entropy always increases--the second law of thermodynamics--holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations-then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation-well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." (Eddington, A.S., "The Nature of the Physical World," [1928], The Gifford Lectures 1927, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge UK, 1933, reprint, pp.74-75. Emphasis original).

Prove age of the earth by observing the world around us now. Your conviction rests on a book translated into American English.

Science: body of knowledge and the process that generates the body of knowledge.

Agnostic: can't know whether there is a higher power

ID: misunderstanding of the nature of nature

Watch in field: "not how nature works. Evolution is a process that adds complexity through natural selection. Nature has is mediocre designs eaten by its good designs. The perception that there is a Designer that created all this is not necessarily true because we have an explanation that is far more compelling and provides predictions and things that are repeatable. ... Nature is not a top-down structure; it is bottom-up. ... This is inconsistent with a top-down view."

Carl Sagan: "When you're in love you want to tell the world."







Question for Ham: "What, if anything, would ever change your mind?"