And with your spirit - Revision history

Mxmsj: Text replacement - "--" to " — "

2022-12-10T10:03:47Z

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	=== Pattern matching ===		=== Pattern matching ===

	The liturgical dialogue is elliptical--both phrases leave out words.		The liturgical dialogue is elliptical — both phrases leave out words.

	"Dominus vobiscum" literally means "Lord you-with." We fill in the blanks in English to smooth it out. We supply the missing pieces: ''The'' Lord ''be'' with you.		"Dominus vobiscum" literally means "Lord you-with." We fill in the blanks in English to smooth it out. We supply the missing pieces: ''The'' Lord ''be'' with you.

Mxmsj: Text replacement - "â€œ" to "“"

2022-12-10T09:20:24Z

Text replacement - "â€œ" to "“"

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	:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/1:21 Mt 1:23]		:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/1:21 Mt 1:23]

	:: ~~â€œBehold~~, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him '''Emmanuel''',” which means ~~â€œGod~~ is '''with us.'''”		:: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him '''Emmanuel''',” which means “God is '''with us.'''”

	:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/28:18 Matthew 28:20]		:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/28:18 Matthew 28:20]

Mxmsj: Text replacement - "â€" to "”"

2022-12-10T09:02:32Z

Text replacement - "â€" to "”"

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	:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/1:21 Mt 1:23]		:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/1:21 Mt 1:23]

	:: â€œBehold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him '''Emmanuel''',~~â€~~ which means â€œGod is '''with us.'''~~â€~~		:: â€œBehold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him '''Emmanuel''',” which means â€œGod is '''with us.'''”

	:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/28:18 Matthew 28:20]		:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/28:18 Matthew 28:20]

Mxmsj: /* Links */

2021-07-27T09:33:38Z

Links

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	* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_vobiscum Dominus vobiscum.]		* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_vobiscum Dominus vobiscum.]
	* [http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html Liturgiam authenticam.]		* [http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html Liturgiam authenticam.]
	::56. Certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony, are to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible, as for example the words of the ~~peopleâ€™s~~ response ''Et cum spiritu tuo'', or the expression ''mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa'' in the Act of Penance of the Order of Mass.		::56. Certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony, are to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible, as for example the words of the people's response ''Et cum spiritu tuo'', or the expression ''mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa'' in the Act of Penance of the Order of Mass.
	* [http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/translating_notes.shtml USCCB FAQ about "Et cum spiritu tuo."]		* [http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/translating_notes.shtml USCCB FAQ about "Et cum spiritu tuo."]

	[[Category:Liturgical Norms]]		[[Category:Liturgical Norms]]
	[[Category:Theological Anthropology]]		[[Category:Theological Anthropology]]

Mxmsj: /* Reverence for the Ministering Spirit */

2021-07-27T09:31:20Z

Reverence for the Ministering Spirit

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	== Reverence for the Ministering Spirit ==		== Reverence for the Ministering Spirit ==

	* Daniel Merz, [http://www.diospringfield.org/romanmissal/preparingparish/7e_RRM%20And%20With%20Your%20Spirit.pdf ~~â€œAnd~~ with Your Spirit.~~â€~~]		* Daniel Merz, [http://www.diospringfield.org/romanmissal/preparingparish/7e_RRM%20And%20With%20Your%20Spirit.pdf "And with Your Spirit."]

	: The Greek word for spirit, '''pneuma''', is never used in the Old Testament to render '''nephesh''', but only when translating '''ruah'''. Thus, it seems clear that the use of 'spirit' in the liturgy is not intended merely as a euphemism for 'you' but bears some other special theological significance. ... The spirit' mentioned here refers specifically to the spirit received in ordination. It is an affirmation by the assembly that the ordained minister has received the appropriate anointing with the spirit to make him the leader in sacramental ministry. This usage has a special beauty: it is less about the person of the priest than about the office of the priesthood, which is supported and guaranteed by the Spirit of God given in ordination. Early Church Fathers, such as John Chrysostom, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Narsai of Nisibis, and Abraham bar Lipheh explicitly back this interpretation.		: The Greek word for spirit, '''pneuma''', is never used in the Old Testament to render '''nephesh''', but only when translating '''ruah'''. Thus, it seems clear that the use of 'spirit' in the liturgy is not intended merely as a euphemism for 'you' but bears some other special theological significance. ... The 'spirit' mentioned here refers specifically to the spirit received in ordination. It is an affirmation by the assembly that the ordained minister has received the appropriate anointing with the spirit to make him the leader in sacramental ministry. This usage has a special beauty: it is less about the person of the priest than about the office of the priesthood, which is supported and guaranteed by the Spirit of God given in ordination. Early Church Fathers, such as John Chrysostom, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Narsai of Nisibis, and Abraham bar Lipheh explicitly back this interpretation.

	: One scriptural usage may be set in objection to this interpretation<nowiki>:</nowiki> Galatians 6<nowiki>:</nowiki>18, Philippians 4<nowiki>:</nowiki>23, and Philemon 25 all use 'spirit' in a more general sense as addressed to the whole Church: 'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.' Saint Paul is not referring here to the particular gifts of the Spirit possessed by each member of the local Church, because 'spirit' is in the singular. Rather, he is referring to that gift of the Spirit which each local Church possesses in so far as it is a unity in Christ for the worship of the Father (Milner, p. 206).		: One scriptural usage may be set in objection to this interpretation<nowiki>:</nowiki> Galatians 6<nowiki>:</nowiki>18, Philippians 4<nowiki>:</nowiki>23, and Philemon 25 all use 'spirit' in a more general sense as addressed to the whole Church: 'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.' Saint Paul is not referring here to the particular gifts of the Spirit possessed by each member of the local Church, because 'spirit' is in the singular. Rather, he is referring to that gift of the Spirit which each local Church possesses in so far as it is a unity in Christ for the worship of the Father (Milner, p. 206).
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	* USCCB, [http://usccb.org/romanmissal/translating_notes.shtml "Notes on the New Translation of the ''Missale Romanum''."]		* USCCB, [http://usccb.org/romanmissal/translating_notes.shtml "Notes on the New Translation of the ''Missale Romanum''."]

	: What do the people mean when they respond 'and with your spirit'? The expression ''et cum spiritu tuo'' is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination. In their response, the people assure the priest of the same divine assistance of ~~Godâ€™s~~ spirit and, more specifically, help for the priest to use the charismatic gifts given to him in ordination and in so doing to fulfill his prophetic function in the Church.		: What do the people mean when they respond 'and with your spirit'? The expression ''et cum spiritu tuo'' is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination. In their response, the people assure the priest of the same divine assistance of God's spirit and, more specifically, help for the priest to use the charismatic gifts given to him in ordination and in so doing to fulfill his prophetic function in the Church.

	== Towards an alternative view ==		== Towards an alternative view ==

Mxmsj: /* Why the variation in Paul's letters? */

2021-07-27T09:29:34Z

Why the variation in Paul's letters?

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	=== Why the variation in Paul's letters? ===		=== Why the variation in Paul's letters? ===
	; Austin Millner, [http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2011/01/27/why-%E2%80%98and-with-your-spirit%E2%80%99-is-right/ "Why ~~â€˜and~~ with your ~~spiritâ€™~~ is right":]		; Austin Millner, [http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2011/01/27/why-%E2%80%98and-with-your-spirit%E2%80%99-is-right/ "Why 'and with your spirit' is right":]

	: "Most of the Pauline letters end with the wish that the grace of Christ may be with those to whom he has written: 'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all' (2 Cor 13:13) or 'The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you' (1 Cor 16:23; 1 Thess 5:28; 2 Thess 3:18) or simply 'Grace be with you' (Col 4:18; 1 Tim. 6:21; Titus 3:15; cf Eph 6:13)<ref>MXM: Note that Paul's blessings that do ''not'' refer to the spirit of the recipients are eight in number, while there are only four times that he adds some version of "your spirit" to the greeting.</ref> Why then, in the four Epistles mentioned above, does he express the wish that the grace of Christ may be with their spirit. ''What, if anything, does this add to his greeting?''		: "Most of the Pauline letters end with the wish that the grace of Christ may be with those to whom he has written: 'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all' (2 Cor 13:13) or 'The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you' (1 Cor 16:23; 1 Thess 5:28; 2 Thess 3:18) or simply 'Grace be with you' (Col 4:18; 1 Tim. 6:21; Titus 3:15; cf Eph 6:13)<ref>MXM: Note that Paul's blessings that do ''not'' refer to the spirit of the recipients are eight in number, while there are only four times that he adds some version of "your spirit" to the greeting.</ref> Why then, in the four Epistles mentioned above, does he express the wish that the grace of Christ may be with their spirit. ''What, if anything, does this add to his greeting?''

	: "It would seem that St Paul always regards the human spirit as a God-given spirit. For the Christian it is a new thing, which, though a created part of the ~~Christianâ€™s~~ nature, is received from God, set in the believer by God: 'For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry 'Abba! Father!' it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God' (Rm 8:15-16; cf 1 Thess 5:23). Fundamentally there is for St Paul only one Spirit of God imparted severally to individuals (cf Rm 1:9; 2 Cor 11:4). It would seem then that in the four cases in which St Paul changes the 'with you' of his final greeting to 'with your spirit' he wants to do two things: he wants to remind his readers of ''the special human participation in the Spirit of God which they have received,'' and because he speaks of 'your (plural) spirit' he seems to be referring to something that exists in, or has been received in common by, the whole church to which he is writing."<ref>Emphasis added.</ref>		: "It would seem that St Paul always regards the human spirit as a God-given spirit. For the Christian it is a new thing, which, though a created part of the Christian's nature, is received from God, set in the believer by God: 'For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry 'Abba! Father!' it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God' (Rm 8:15-16; cf 1 Thess 5:23). Fundamentally there is for St Paul only one Spirit of God imparted severally to individuals (cf Rm 1:9; 2 Cor 11:4). It would seem then that in the four cases in which St Paul changes the 'with you' of his final greeting to 'with your spirit' he wants to do two things: he wants to remind his readers of ''the special human participation in the Spirit of God which they have received,'' and because he speaks of 'your (plural) spirit' he seems to be referring to something that exists in, or has been received in common by, the whole church to which he is writing."<ref>Emphasis added.</ref>

	=== Paul does not mean "Spirit of Ministry" ===		=== Paul does not mean "Spirit of Ministry" ===

Mxmsj: /* The Angelic Salutation */

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The Angelic Salutation

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	==== The Angelic Salutation ====		==== The Angelic Salutation ====

	"And coming to her, he said, ~~â€œHail~~, favored one! The Lord is with ~~youâ€~~ [~~http~~://www.usccb.org/bible/luke/1:28 (Lk 1:28).]		"And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you" [https://www.usccb.org/bible/luke/1:28 (Lk 1:28).]

	{\|{{Prettytable}}		{\|{{Prettytable}}
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	! English		! English
	\|-		\|-
	\| ÎºÎ±á½¶ Îµá¼°ÏƒÎµÎ»Î¸á½¼Î½ Ï€Ïá½¸Ï‚ Î±á½Ï„á½´Î½ Îµá¼¶Ï€ÎµÎ½Â· Ï‡Î±á¿–ÏÎµ, ÎºÎµÏ‡Î±ÏÎ¹Ï„Ï‰Î¼ÎÎ½Î·, '''á½ ÎºÏÏÎ¹Î¿Ï‚ Î¼ÎµÏ„á½° ÏƒÎ¿á¿¦'''.		\| Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
	\| Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.		\| Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
	\| "Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you."		\| "Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you."
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	Both the Latin and the Greek lack a verb. In the "Hail Mary," we translate "Lord you with" as "The Lord '''''is''''' with you," but in the Liturgy, we provide a different verb: "The Lord be with you."		Both the Latin and the Greek lack a verb. In the "Hail Mary," we translate "Lord you with" as "The Lord '''''is''''' with you," but in the Liturgy, we provide a different verb: "The Lord be with you."

	The difference between the two translations is utterly a matter of interpretation, not of grammar. In the "Hail Mary," we presume that the angel is saying that Mary is "full of grace" (~~ÎºÎµÏ‡Î±ÏÎ¹Ï„Ï‰Î¼ÎÎ½Î·~~) ''because'' the Lord ''is'' with her. In the Liturgy, we presume that the priest is praying for a grace that the congregation does not yet possess fully: ''May'' the Lord ''be'' with you."		The difference between the two translations is utterly a matter of interpretation, not of grammar. In the "Hail Mary," we presume that the angel is saying that Mary is "full of grace" (κεχαριτωμένη) ''because'' the Lord ''is'' with her. In the Liturgy, we presume that the priest is praying for a grace that the congregation does not yet possess fully: ''May'' the Lord ''be'' with you."

	Grammatically, either way of translating the phrase "[the] Lord with you" is allowable; neither is mandated. English requires that a choice be made; the ambiguous sentence fragments "Lord with you" or "Lord you with" are not acceptable.		Grammatically, either way of translating the phrase "[the] Lord with you" is allowable; neither is mandated. English requires that a choice be made; the ambiguous sentence fragments "Lord with you" or "Lord you with" are not acceptable.

Mxmsj: /* The Angelic Salutation */

2013-12-22T12:06:36Z

The Angelic Salutation

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	The difference between the two translations is utterly a matter of interpretation, not of grammar. In the "Hail Mary," we presume that the angel is saying that Mary is "full of grace" (ÎºÎµÏ‡Î±ÏÎ¹Ï„Ï‰Î¼ÎÎ½Î·) ''because'' the Lord ''is'' with her. In the Liturgy, we presume that the priest is praying for a grace that the congregation does not yet possess fully: ''May'' the Lord ''be'' with you."		The difference between the two translations is utterly a matter of interpretation, not of grammar. In the "Hail Mary," we presume that the angel is saying that Mary is "full of grace" (ÎºÎµÏ‡Î±ÏÎ¹Ï„Ï‰Î¼ÎÎ½Î·) ''because'' the Lord ''is'' with her. In the Liturgy, we presume that the priest is praying for a grace that the congregation does not yet possess fully: ''May'' the Lord ''be'' with you."

	Grammatically, either way of translating the phrase "[the] Lord with you" is allowable; neither is mandated.		Grammatically, either way of translating the phrase "[the] Lord with you" is allowable; neither is mandated. English requires that a choice be made; the ambiguous sentence fragments "Lord with you" or "Lord you with" are not acceptable.

	The one grammatical difference between the two phrases is that "you" is in the singular in the Angelic Salutation while it is in the plural in the Liturgy~~. English requires that a choice be made~~.		The one grammatical difference between the two phrases is that "you" is in the singular in the Angelic Salutation while it is in the plural in the Liturgy.

	==== "I am with you" ====		==== "I am with you" ====

Mxmsj: /* Old Testament */

2013-12-22T12:03:50Z

Old Testament

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	I wouldn't mind the interpretative insertion of "the" and "be" so much if our translators hadn't lectured us so severely about the need ''not'' to smooth out "The word of the Lord," "The gospel of the Lord," and "The mystery of faith" by supplying helping verbs in English.		I wouldn't mind the interpretative insertion of "the" and "be" so much if our translators hadn't lectured us so severely about the need ''not'' to smooth out "The word of the Lord," "The gospel of the Lord," and "The mystery of faith" by supplying helping verbs in English.

	"Lord with you" actually suggests another possible origin for this blessing: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel ~~Immannu~~-El (Emmanuel)] in Hebrew means "'''with us''' God."		"Lord with you" actually suggests another possible origin for this blessing: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel Immanu-El (Emmanuel)] in Hebrew means "'''with us''' God."

	:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/bible/deuteronomy/31:6 Dt 31:6]		:; [http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/bible/deuteronomy/31:6 Dt 31:6]

Mxmsj: /* Old Testament */

2013-08-13T14:32:09Z

Old Testament

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	=== Old Testament ===		=== Old Testament ===

	"Boaz himself came from Bethlehem and said to the harvesters, 'The LORD be with you!' and they replied, 'The LORD bless you!'" [http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ruth/ruth2.htm (Ruth 2:4).]		"Boaz himself came from Bethlehem and said to the harvesters, ''''The LORD be with you!'''' and they replied, 'The LORD bless you!'" [http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ruth/ruth2.htm (Ruth 2:4).]

	The Greek original says nothing about "and with your spirit."		The Greek original says nothing about "and with your spirit."

And with your spirit - Revision history

Mxmsj: Text replacement - "--" to " — "

Mxmsj: Text replacement - "â€œ" to "“"

Mxmsj: Text replacement - "â€" to "”"

Mxmsj: /* Links */

Mxmsj: /* Reverence for the Ministering Spirit */

Mxmsj: /* Why the variation in Paul's letters? */

Mxmsj: /* The Angelic Salutation */

Mxmsj: /* The Angelic Salutation */

Mxmsj: /* Old Testament */

Mxmsj: /* Old Testament */

Mxmsj: Text replacement - "â€" to "”"